How Chappell Roan’s producer Dan Nigro crafts pop hits for a brand new era : NPR

2024 has been an enormous yr for Chappell Roan, a 26-year-old pop singer from the Midwest whose catchy, larger-than-life songs like “Pink Pony Membership” and “Good Luck, Babe!” have garnered billions of streams and dominated competition levels throughout the globe. However within the studio working alongside her is Daniel Nigro, her common co-writer and producer who has helped the artist form her campy, theatrical strategy to music. A former emo band frontman, Nigro has grow to be a trusted collaborator for pop music’s new class of rising stars, together with Roan in addition to Olivia Rodrigo, whose two albums and Grammy award-winning tune “Driver’s License” had been produced by Nigro. Working with each artists to distill their personalities and voices into distinctive and private songs, Nigro has established himself as a producer adept at making pop hits for a brand new era.

This yr, Nigro is nominated for producer of the yr, non-classical on the Grammys. He spoke with All Issues Thought-about‘s Ailsa Chang about his path to turning into a pop producer, figuring out whether or not a tune can be a success and why an artist’s second album is form of like constructing a mountain.

This interview has been edited for size and readability. 

Ailsa Chang: You have got had such an incredible previous few years. You are this vastly celebrated producer working with two of the most important pop stars proper now. However I perceive it was a extremely lengthy street to get right here. You had been first in an emo band years in the past known as As Tall as Lions after which — I like this element — if you had been attempting to get began as a songwriter, you had been writing industrial jingles.

Dan Nigro: Sure.

Why jingles?

I got here out to Los Angeles ultimately of 2010, early 2011, popping out of being in a band and never having any cash. And I had a really fortunate alternative to start out making jingles. It was a technique to earn money and pay the lease, and I actually loved it really. The entire goal was like, I simply wished to be making sufficient cash to dwell, making music. And it wasn’t figuring out being in a band.

How did you go from writing industrial jingles to writing pop music?

I used to be at all times fascinated about songwriting, however I believe the manufacturing facet of it got here later. As a result of for me, I used to be within the songwriting world and the manufacturing world — I ought to say within the pop music world. A number of artists do not need assistance writing — they do not need collaborators within the songwriting stuff. They only need to do it themselves or work with a producer. Simply being strictly a songwriter, it is actually troublesome as a result of the artists at all times, for essentially the most half, have their relationships with the producers. As a songwriter, you grow to be buddies with producers more often than not — you write songs with them after which they work on the songs with the artists, or possibly it is simply the songwriter and the producer they usually’re working with the document label they usually’re simply getting it to an artist.

What I used to be scuffling with on the time was that within the early days being a songwriter, I’d go in with a producer and I’d write a tune with the producer … after which the producer would then make the manufacturing later. And what occurs is usually, one, you’ll be able to wait weeks or months for them to offer you again a demo of the manufacturing. Generally you get it again and it is nothing like what you wished it to sound like.

You have no management at that time. 

You don’t have any management with what the tune finally ends up sounding like. And so I discovered myself continuously disillusioned working with different producers as a result of I had no inventive management as to what was taking place with my music. I mainly began to only get into manufacturing. I imply, clearly I play piano, I play guitar, I play bass, I can program drums — I am not an ideal drummer myself — however I might play all the principle devices. And I began to be taught through the years how you can use the programming and ProTools a bit higher. Then abruptly I used to be capable of form of do my very own manufacturing, my rudimentary personal productions.

What’s attention-grabbing is Chappell’s path form of mirrors your sluggish burn ascent as a producer as a result of individuals speak about her as we speak like she’s some in a single day success. However you had been working along with her all the best way again in 2018. Speak about what it took to get her from the artist you knew in 2018 to what we’re listening to as we speak.

Once I met Chappell, I believe she was 20, about to be 21. I imply, she was at all times Chappell Roan, you already know. [She] had a really totally different aesthetic to it. It was undoubtedly a bit bit darker and moodier within the music tone. She was undoubtedly shy within the studio, however we had such an ideal writing chemistry. It was like [that] even on day one.

What do you imply that she was shy? 

She was quiet. Mainly the primary tune we ever wrote was this tune known as “Love Me Anyway.” And I bear in mind we sat and we talked about what she wished to do musically and he or she wished to work on music that had these actually dreamy guitars. I picked up my guitar and I began taking part in and he or she wasn’t very expressive [or] like, “I like that!” She was sitting on the sofa and the entire time I am taking part in these chords, quietly, and I am nervous. After which she simply form of checked out me and he or she was like, “Oh, I believe I’ve an concept.” I assumed that she was going to sing me her concept within the room, like form of begin to go over her concepts to collaborate. And I bear in mind she stated, “Nicely, I believe I am prepared to only get on the microphone.” And he or she obtained on the microphone and he or she just about simply sang the verse and the refrain. I used to be like, oh, she’s been working, wow.

Like in her mind.

Quick ahead like 5 months later and he or she got here in and he or she was like, I need to write a tune known as “Pink Pony Membership.” I bear in mind form of taking a look at her like, what? As a result of if you simply hear the identify “Pink Pony Membership” out of context of listening to the tune and particularly on the time when all of her music was actually darkish and moody. I used to be a bit bit like…

Is that ironic? [Laughs]

I used to be a bit bit confused as to what she meant. She began explaining, she wished form of a dance tune. I used to be excited [and] on the similar time, a bit bit like, you need a dance tune? I bear in mind making a drumbeat, just like the beat that’s [in] “Pink Pony Membership.” Then we labored out what the start of the tune was going to be. I’ve obtained this sense a few instances in my profession of if you write a tune that is so daring, your physique begins to offer you these bizarre combined alerts since you begin to prefer it a lot and then you definately really really feel prefer it’s particular, however then you definately’re afraid. You are feeling like, oh, are individuals going to know this?

So if you had been writing “Pink Pony Membership” and also you had been feeling that ambivalence, do you know on the time, like that is going to be a success?

I really feel like that was the second the place I believe each of us collectively began to comprehend, oh, this challenge goes to be quite a bit larger than simply, moody, darkish music. When she was singing it, my thought as a producer was like, oh, that is such her character.

I like listening to the best way you interpret the artist’s voice, like the best way you are like, oh, this tune, “Pink Pony Membership,” It really much more encapsulated who Chappell is. And the factor I need to perceive about you is how do you assist artists hear their very own voices as they’re working with you. As a result of you’re a decade and a half older than both Chappell or Olivia. You are a person. Does that age and gender hole ever get in the best way if you’re serving to them convey their visions to life? 

I really feel like that is nearly like a greater query to ask them in a sure means, as a result of I do not really feel it. I do know this sounds cliché, however if you’re making music, it is like music would not have an age, you already know? Particularly, like if you’re coming at it from such a holistic place of simply merely writing a tune, it would not actually should do with age. I suppose in sure methods when it comes to what we have skilled in life. However even if you happen to’re speaking about, like, Olivia going via sure issues [as] easy as a breakup. I performed within the emo band, you already know. I used to be an emotional 20 yr outdated at one level. Ask me if I can relate to these emotions, after all I can.

Does the truth that you was once in a band, does that provide help to grow to be a greater collaborator as we speak? As a result of I suppose it is by no means been nearly you, even in your early days as a musician.

I inform everybody that being in a band was the best studying expertise I’ve ever had for turning into a producer. As a result of if you’re in a band, you might be coping with a number of personalities. You are coping with a lot of delicate individuals who have lots of emotions. I at all times say coping with band dynamics helped me to navigate — nothing to do with Chappell or Olivia — simply merely turning into a producer and how you can navigate a scenario and attempt to assist someone.

I at all times say that for myself personally, being a singer has at all times actually helped as a result of I struggled after I was youthful with feeling assured on a microphone and singing. And I used to be feeling annoyed that after I was working with different producers by myself music, that they weren’t capable of assist me to sound the best way that I wished to or coach me in the correct means. I discovered myself after I moved out to L.A., after I discovered how you can produce music and I discovered how you can document vocals, I’d document myself. Once I was a singer, I assumed that basically helped me to navigate working with an artist. As a result of as soon as an artist will get on a microphone and begins singing, it’s totally private.

You had been speaking about how if you’re within the strategy of writing, typically when a tune goes to be good, you could have this simultaneous feeling of like, oh my God, are individuals going to get me? Or, wow, that is so wonderful. Is that what you go for now? Have you learnt when a tune goes to be a success if you are writing it, or is it this fixed imposter syndrome?

I by no means know if a tune goes to be a success. I really feel like I at all times should make clear that with anyone. If I am speaking to a document label or if I am speaking to the artist or whoever that like, I by no means know if a tune goes to be a success. I can solely inform when a tune is basically good. Whether or not a tune turns into a success is sort of a complete ‘nother factor that relies on tradition and so many different components that don’t have anything to do with me. Can I inform when a tune is basically good and really particular and vital for the artist? Sure.

What about if you’re engaged on a second album after the primary one is a big hit, like, I do know you have already executed this with Olivia. Have been there classes from making Guts, which is Olivia’s second album, which you could now apply to Chappell’s second album, which I perceive you are engaged on proper now?

Once you make an album, my analogy is it is a mountain, proper? You’ve got constructed a mountain. You’ve got made this gigantic mountain that appears like a pile of dust. After which it comes out after which you could have no matter individuals have the info of — the streaming numbers or the gross sales or the vinyl gross sales or the awards and the accolades and the evaluations. These issues construct up the bushes and the paths and the attractive rivers that move down the mountain. After which you could have this factor that you just see and it is so stunning, and then you definately go to make the second mountain. Although you are shoveling the rocks and the dust, it nonetheless simply appears like rocks and dust.

And also you swivel your head and also you’re taking a look at this mountain with bushes and rivers and resorts.

And it simply by no means appears the identical. It is actually laborious to look again since you simply see the issues which have occurred after you made the document that additionally cloud the mind enthusiastic about what it really appears like as a result of it did not appear to be that if you put it out.

Was there ever a time that you just and Chappell had some disagreement about what path a tune ought to go in? And the way did you resolve that? Like, do you get to win disagreements?

I believe we get to share wins. I am going to offer you an instance of each. I do not assume it is a disagreement. I really take into consideration in “Pink Pony Membership,” after I first made the demo of the tune, the place the guitar solo I had a synth solo. I despatched it to her and I used to be actually enthusiastic about it. She’s like, “no, it ought to be a guitar solo.” And I used to be like a guitar solo? I used to be like, okay, certain. I am going to attempt a guitar solo. After which she was like, “no, it is not melodic sufficient.” So the model that you just hear on the album now could be the second go.

After which she let me win on “Crimson Wine Supernova” … she made the unique demo with a few songwriters after which she introduced it to me and we wrote the bridge collectively, we rewrote the verse lyrics. However I used to be simply pushing for it to be like so excessive, and he or she did not need it to be excessive. I bear in mind having a second of like, simply go along with me on it. And we went full camp. I bear in mind after we lastly laid down the vocals for the tune, the “let’s decide it up now,” she was like okay, that is superior.

I imply, that is the enjoyment of collaboration. You stretch one another, you make one another develop, and you’re taking dangers since you belief the opposite particular person and make one thing cool. 

I believe that is the vital half. You need to pay attention to one another and know, like, I do not actually 100% totally see it, however I’ll do it — I am going to put the guitar solo and I am going to work my hardest to make a brilliant melodic guitar solo. After which on the finish of the day, it is like, okay nice, you had been proper. I can not consider that I did not hear this earlier than.